Jeffrey Scott Linder wrote:
> Jeffrey Turner <jturner@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>Jeffrey Scott Linder wrote:
>>
>>>Jeffrey Turner <jturner@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Jeffrey Scott Linder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Jeffrey Turner <jturner@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Jeffrey Scott Linder wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jeffrey Turner <jturner@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Jeffrey Scott Linder wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fheal@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Stevie Nichts <nix2nichts@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On Jun 30, 8:10 pm, mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fh...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>com>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Stevie Nichts <nix2nic...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Jun 30, 11:19 am, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> w=
ro=3D
>>
>>te:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ernst Blofeld wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Jun 29, 8:44 am, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> =
wr=3D
>>
>>ote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Because, you know, anyone against affirmative action and=
q=3D
>>
>>uota=3D20
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hiring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is also a racist and against civil rights.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>And thus you quickly prove the point I was making.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>What is the conservative approach, other than to say, "Tu=
t =3D
>>
>>tut, that=3D20
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a problem"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Um, not discriminating on the basis of race?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Oh right, pretending there is no problem. Gotcha.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I thought the standard was judging a person by the content
>>>>>>>>>>>>>of his character, and not by the color of his skin. Has that=
>>>>>>>>>>>>>notion been wholly abandoned by the left?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>so if we compare the color of skin in a large enough company
>>>>>>>>>>>>should or should it not match the population as a whole?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Ah, yes: the canard that equality of results trumps
>>>>>>>>>>>equality of op****tunity. What did MLK think of that, anyway?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>how do you demonstrate equality of op****tunity
>>>>>>>>>>if the results are not
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You can't demonstrate equality of op****tunity by judging results=
=2E
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>With a large enough sample size you can. =3D20
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Give me an example.
>>>>>
>>>>>You don't have an example to give?
>>>>
>>>>I already gave the example: medical testing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>Unless you believe there are
>>>>>>>>inherent differences that preclude some people from achieving res=
ul=3D
>>
>>ts.
>>
>>>>>>>No, just choices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Lawd yes. Dem [black folks] is lazy, ****f'less good-fer-nuthin's. =
Y=3D
>>
>>a
>>
>>>>>>can't expect them to make good, responsible choices lik'n us white
>>>>>>folks.
>>>>>
>>>>>I would suggest you look at the dropout rate, teen pregnancy rate, a=
nd=3D
>>
>>>>>single motherhood rate.
>>>>>
>>>>>Here are some useful links:
>>>>>http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779196.html
>>>>>http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/tables/1_Table_1.htm
>>>>
>>>>We know that majority minority schools are lower funded and in worse
>>>>condition than mostly white schools -
>>>
>>>=3D20
>>>No they aren't.
>>
>>Yes, they are.
>>
>><quote>
>>In light of this inspiring language, one might be surprised to learn
>>that high-minority school districts in Kansas receive substantially les=
s
>>state and local educational funding than high-majority school districts=
=2E
>>The Education Trust observed that in 2001 the per-pupil funding gap
>>between high-minority and low-minority districts in the state was $1,81=
2
>>($6,033 =3D96 $7,845), ranking the state second only to New York in rac=
ial
>>funding gap.3
>>
>>3 Kevin Carey, The Funding Gap: Minority and Low-Income Students Still
>>Receive Fewer Dollars in Many States, at
>>http://www2.edtrust.org/NR/rdonlyres/EE004C0A-D7B8-40A6-8A03-1F26B82285=
02=3D
>>/0/funding2003.pdf
>>(visited Oct. 2, 2004).
>>
>>http://web.ku.edu/~bdbaker/WestsLaw05.pdf
>>
>>Similarly, in 28 states the school districts with the highest percentag=
e
>>of minority children receive less funding than districts with the fewes=
t
>>minority children. And again, this is true of the nation as a whole.
>>
>>http://www2.edtrust.org/NR/rdonlyres/EE004C0A-D7B8-40A6-8A03-1F26B82285=
02=3D
>>/0/funding2003.pdf
>>
>>
>>>>and that schools are more
>>>>segregated than they were in 1968.=3D20
>>>
>>>Are you saying that blacks can't learn without whitey around to show
>>>them how?
>>
>>I'm saying that "separate but equal" still isn't.
>>
>><quote>
>>"I don't think that the education that you get hinges on the color of
>>the person sitting next to you in the classroom," Clegg says. "What
>>educators should focus on is improving schools."
>>
>>That sounds great in theory, say some experts, but the fact is that
>>segregated schools tend to be highly correlated with such things as
>>school performance and the ability to attract teachers.
>=20
> But later you quote someone who says that blacks learn best from other
> blacks. Which is it?
What makes you think there aren't good black teachers?
>>"Once you separate kids spacially from more privileged kids, they tend
>>to not get the same things," says Amy Stuart Wells, an education
>>professor at Columbia University's Teachers College in New York. "And w=
e
>>need to start thinking about how a school that's racially isolated can
>>be preparing students for this global society we live in."
>>
>>http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0125/p01s01-ussc.html?page=3D3D2
>>
>>
>>>>It's also known that teachers and
>>>>administrators are less sympathetic to minorities and don't work as h=
ard
>>>>to keep them from dropping out.
>>>
>>>=3D20
>>>Oh we do? Do you have any evidence of this?
>>>I didn't think so.
>>
>>"There's an inequity in resources," says Pam Green, Garfield's Parent
>>Teacher Student Association president and the black parent of a
>>struggling Garfield 10th-grader. "The inequity starts in elementary
>>schools, when teachers start labeling kids and putting them in
>>groups.... To me, it's really two camps. It's very disturbing because
>>the AP program is serving less than a third of the school." A study
>>released in March by the Applied Research Center, a think tank in
>>Oakland, California, bolsters Green's viewpoint. The study found that
>>minority students in just about every state are doing worse than their
>>white counterparts, and noted that school districts exacerbate the
>>problem by trapping kids in largely segregated academic tracks that are=
>>almost impossible to escape. As Libero Della Piana, one author of the
>>study, puts it, "Those cl***** are geared toward you never catching up.=
>>Maybe having more AP cl***** is not the best idea."
>>[...]
>>Jim Creighton, head of the history department, is the lead advocate for=
>>AP cl***** at Garfield, and embodies yet another barrier -- teacher
>>attitudes. He refuses to discuss in any detail the lack of black
>>students in his cl*****, and justifies the overrepresentation of white
>>students by claiming that less is required of black students applying t=
o
>>colleges. The logic, apparently, is that blacks can be lazier because
>>they've got it made. "There are two different sets of cir***stances," i=
s
>>all Creighton would say.
>>[...]
>>Nearly all of Garfield's 12 AP teachers are white, and none are black.
>>(This reflects a trend in the school as a whole; only 13 of Garfield's
>>79 teachers are black.) Yet, according to the 1998 book The Black-White=
>>Test Score Gap, a collection of research on racial disparity in
>>test-score results, teachers make the biggest difference in raising tes=
t
>>scores, and black students learn more effectively from black teachers o=
n
>>average. One Asian AP student, who asked to remain anonymous, speculate=
s
>>that "if there [were] more competent black teachers, the black students=
>>would be much more interested."
>>
>>http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=3D3D3774
>>
>>
>>>>>http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_06.pdf
>>>>
>>>>When there isn't equal economic op****tunity people find other things =
to=3D
>>
>>>>do with their time.
>>>
>>>=3D20
>>>Like I said...individuals make choices.
>>
>>Yeah, they choose not to put nearly as much money into training and
>>hiring blacks and latinos as they do for whites.
>=20
> I guess you didn't compare graduation rates.
When the system is biased, what else would one expect? I know. You
walked three miles uphill in both directions to get an education, but I
hardly think you can expect everyone to succeed by doing that.
>>>>>>>>It's done all the time. If you're testing a new drug, and those =
taking
>>>>>>>>it live longer than the control group, then you conclude they had=
a=3D
>>>>>>>>better "op****tunity."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Different system....no self-selection is expressed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Black folks choose to be poor. Ever since the 1965 Civil Rights Ac=
t -
>>>>>>and hardly a man is now alive who remembers that year - blacks have=
had
>>>>>>full equal rights and just keep choosing to be poor. Of course, so=
do
>>>>>>poor whites every time they vote Republican. Uh huh.
>>>>>
>>>>>Go ahead and keep your head in the sand and point blame elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>Individuals make choices that directly impact their quality of life.=
>>>>
>>>>And individuals make choices that directly impact the quality of the
>>>>lives of others. And in America there's a racial bias to those
>>>>decisions overall.
>>>
>>>I see...when asked for specifics all you can do is point to the man
>>>behind the curtain.
>>
>>And all you can do is pretend there isn't anybody in charge in America.=
>=20
> http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/010=
125.html
>=20
> "The nation=92s public school districts spent an average of $8,701 per
> student on elementary and secondary education in fiscal year 2005, up
> 5 percent from $8,287 the previous year, the U.S. Census Bureau
> re****ted today.
I wonder how much of that increase was just heating school buildings.
But education, plus administrative overhead like NCLB, is expensive to
do right.
> Findings from Public Education Finances: 2005, show that New York
> spent $14,119 per student =97 the highest amount among states and state=
> equivalents. Just behind was neighboring New Jersey at $13,800, the
> District of Columbia at $12,979, Vermont ($11,835) and Connecticut
> ($11,572). Seven of the top 10 with the highest per pupil expenditures
> were in the Northeast.
>=20
> Utah spent the least per student ($5,257), followed by Arizona
> ($6,261), Idaho ($6,283), Mississippi ($6,575) and Oklahoma ($6,613).
> All 10 of the states with the lowest spending per student were in the
> West or South.
>=20
> The re****t and associated data files contain information for all
> local public school systems in the country. For example, in New York
> City, the largest school district in the country, per pupil spending
> was $13,755."
Do you have a point? At least you've conceded most of my arguments,
though I hardly expect that you've learned anything.
--Jeff
--=20
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy
|
