Re: Stats Gone Wild! Plus Triple-Play Bonus

On 16 May 2008 14:52:20 GMT, Opus the Penguin
<opusthepenguin+usenet@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

>M C Hamster (davolson@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
) wrote:
>
>> On 16 May 2008 13:04:52 GMT, Opus the Penguin
>> <opusthepenguin+usenet@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> 
>>>M C Hamster (davolson@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
) wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15 May 2008 23:24:01 -0500, M C Hamster
>>>> <davolson@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>On 15 May 2008 22:43:14 GMT, Opus the Penguin
>>>>><opusthepenguin+usenet@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Greg Goss (gossg@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob Ward <bobward@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>On 15 May 2008 00:29:01 -0500, M C Hamster
>>>>>>>><davolson@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Since we're talking random simulations of baseball seasons,
>>>>>>>>>here's an old column that I posted here, that statistically
>>>>>>>>>quantified the amazing futility of the Cubs (and White Sox).
>>>>>>>>>It is now outdated, since the White Sox won in 2005.  But
>>>>>>>>>the Cubs odds still basically hold, and in fact are even
>>>>>>>>>greater now, 5 years hence. 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>************
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Shouldn't that read "five years later"?  To me, five years
>>>>>>>>hence means five years from now, in the future.*See #2
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Definition of Hence
>>>>>>>>Pronunciation: hens 
>>>>>>>>adv. 1. From this place; away.
>>>>>>>>Arise, let us go hence.
>>>>>>>>- John xiv. 31.
>>>>>>>>I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
>>>>>>>>- Acts xxii. 21. 
>>>>>>>> 2. From this time; in the future; as, a week hence. 
>>>>>>>> 3. From this reason; therefore; - as an inference or
>>>>>>>> deduction. 
>>>>>>>>Hence, perhaps, it is, that Solomon calls the fear of the
>>>>>>>>Lord the beginning of wisdom.
>>>>>>>>- Tillotson. 
>>>>>>>> 4. From this source or origin.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I would have agreed with you until you tried to cite
>>>>>>> evidence. MC described a point in time, then described
>>>>>>> another point in time five years "from this time".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>He described a point five years "from THAT time". "This" time
>>>>>>is the one we're in right now. If it weren't archaic, he could
>>>>>>have said "Five years thence." But "five years hence" means
>>>>>>"five years from now."
>>>>>
>>>>>No it doesn't, not necessarily and not according to the
>>>>>dictionary definition of the word "hence".  It means five years
>>>>>from "this time". In my sentence, "this time" represents the
>>>>>date the column was written.   It's entirely appropriate for me
>>>>>to refer to the time the column was written as "this time".
>>>>>
>>>>>I can completely correctly say "Napoleon was defeated at
>>>>>Waterloo. THIS represents the end of the Napoleonic era."  I do
>>>>>not have to say "THAT represents the end of the Napoleonic era".
>>>>>  Having set up that I'm talking about past events, but using
>>>>>present references because it's the discussion that we're having
>>>>>that I'm referring to, not the event itself, I can then say
>>>>>"Five years hence, Napoleon was exiled to Elba."  
>>>>>
>>>>>Produce for me a direct refutation of this, from a trusted and
>>>>>respected source, and I'll consider it.  But my usage is
>>>>>completely consistent with the dictionary defintions that have
>>>>>been posted here. 
>>>> 
>>>> If you are correct, then it would be impossible to ever have a
>>>> sentence read something like "According to the judge's ruling,
>>>> the defendent henceforth was ordered to re****t for parole twice
>>>> a year". That is, you could never have a past tense verb
>>>> following "henceforth".  If you Google, as I just did, you'll
>>>> see a vast number of cases of sentences like that.  
>>>> 
>>>> E.g., "Religious communities or branches that had their
>>>> headquarters outside the country, such as the Jesuit and
>>>> Franciscan orders, were henceforth ordered to..."  
>>>> 
>>>> or  "Stripped of its historic mission and most of its military
>>>> functions, the Order henceforth limited itself to providing a
>>>> regiment for the service of the...."
>>>> 
>>>> So certainly in common vernacular is the use of hence, or
>>>> henceforth, as representing "from a given time forward", without
>>>> that given time necessarily being today, but some specified time
>>>> in the past. 
>>>> 
>>>
>>>If language is modular and "henceforth" means exactly what you
>>>would expect from combining the words "hence" and "forth," I'd
>>>take your point. I don't recall ever seeing "hence" used the way
>>>you claim. A direct citation of that would be interesting to me.
>> 
>> So if I had said "henceforth" rather than simply "hence", that
>> would have been OK?  I believe that I use the two as completely
>> interchangeable.  M-W appears to list that as archaic usage,
>> though, so I'm beginning to cave and admit, yet again, my shaky
>> grasp of the language.  
>> 
>
>You should've held out. I was beginning to doubt myself.
>
>

It was your threat to air this in alt.usage.english that did me in.
You bastard.  You knew.  

>> What alternatives would I have for the use of hence in the context
>> I placed it in?  "Later" is just far, far too mundane.  I need a
>> nice word like "hence".
>> 
>
>There isn't one. That's the problem. In the past, you could have used 
>"thence".
>
>> "Five years on..."
>> "Five years later..."
>> 
>> I need a nice word, even if made up, like, um, "Five years
>> passtime". "Five years henceforth" would do nicely, if that's OK
>> even if "hence" is not.  
>> 
>
>I say we bring back "thence" meaning "from that time".

Thence it is, then.

But there is a great deal of use, or misuse, of "henceforth", it would
appear.  

From http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/henceforth,
under its "usage" area, it lists these examples:

*****

In 1998 the Government announced in a Politburo declaration that
henceforth citizens would be allowed to celebrate Christmas as an
official holiday. (references)
 
Henceforth, all losses would stay with the banks, which would be
responsible for the management of all their assets and liabilities.
(references)
 
In June 1998 the Ministry of Education announced that teachers of
grades 1-5 in the public school system must henceforth be UAE national
women. (references)
 
However, the Government reduced its sup****t after the economic
downturn that began in mid-1997, and in December 2000, Minister of
Manpower and Transmigration Alhilal Hamdi announced that the
Government had stopped sending transmigrants between islands as of
August 2000. He said that henceforth the Government only would sup****t
transmigration within the same province.

*****

In all of those cases, I would argue that the usage is correct,
because the "from this date forward" applies not to literally today,
but the date that something occurred (e.g., June 1998 in the third
example).  At that time, saying something was henceforth can be
predated back to the time it occurred, making the usage correct.

I would argue, in a similar way, that my reference back to the
publication of the original column validated my use of "hence".  

It's interesting that none of the examples quoted from literature do
this, though.  
 



-- 
M C Hamster  "Big Wheel Keep on Turning" -- Creedence Clearwater Revival